NS Panel Pro Thermostat problems

NSPanel Pro
65

What is the purpose of a thermostat that only opens a servo valve? And if, for example, you need to turn on the circulation pump to get heated water from the tank to the radiator, if it does not do this, the open valve is useless. This is a common situation with central heating.

The pump will not pump water against a closed valve. Sonoff should have studied the issue of heating and regulation. Now their thermostat is suitable for switching on a convector and servo valves. Provided that the central heating can cope with closed valves and a bypass is made.

66

I do understand, but if you use electric heater in the room, it can be quite useful. I use it to start boiler in basement - far from perfect, but if it operates just one actuator, still can be useful to some people.

But, it needs to be realiable first.

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I suggested that the user be able to switch whether they want this thermostat they already have or the advanced.

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Guys, thank you all for the detailed feedbacks and great suggestions. I sincerely appreciate all the help.

We do want to make NSPanel Pro more useful for our dear users, and clearly Thermostat is an important feature. I do admit that we know far too little in this field.

I think I have fully understood the operating logic of the setup of @Jojkoba, @Stophammer and @p.silhan . I am preparing the proposal now. I should be able to post it here within 2 days. Please bear with me.

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Iā€™m waiting.

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The plugin on the app seems to work, but it needs to be transmitted to the pro panel.
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We currently know that there are at least two forms of heating: water heating and air heating.

1. Water heating

A water heater, such as a condensing boiler, is responsible for heating the entire house. The hot water produced by the water heater flows through pipes to each room, and each room has a radiator to heat the corresponding room.

The water heater can be converted into an intelligent one using a smart switch, such as SONOFF MINI-D or ZBMINIR2. The radiators in each room can also be converted to be intelligent by using smart switches or SONOFF TRVs.

When the switch or TRV in ANY room is turned on, the switch controlling the water heater should also be turned on. When the switches or TRVs in ALL the rooms are turned off, the switch controlling the water heater should also be turned off.

To achieve an intelligent temperature control experience, temperature sensors can be installed in each room, and then the sensor in the same room must be linked with the corresponding switch. For TRV, either the built-in temperature sensor can be used, or an external temperature sensor can be installed in the same room.

This kind of correlation (between the sensor and the switch in the same room) can be simple or complex.

  • Simple: Set the target temperature for the room. Based on the difference between the readings of the temperature sensor and the target temperature, determine whether to turn on or off the switch (the radiator).

  • Complex: Set different target temperatures for different days of the week and different times of the day - this is what is called a schedule.

This correlation can also be made more intelligent through the analysis of historical data and user usage habits, for example:

  • Recommend an appropriate schedule and target temperatures to achieve greater energy conservation

  • Preheat the room in advance before the start of the schedule, so that it can reach the suitable temperature earlier.

2. Air heating

A heat pump is responsible for heating the entire house. The hot air generated by the heat pump flows through the ducts and passes through the vents in each room, but each room does NOT have a separate electric controller to control the vents.

The heat pump can be converted to an intelligent one by using a smart switch.

When there is a heating requirement in ANY room, the heat pump should be turned on. When no heating is needed in ALL rooms, the heat pump should be turned off.

To achieve an intelligent temperature control experience, temperature sensors can be installed in each room. And all the temperature sensors should be linked to the smart switch of the heat pump.

This kind of correlation can be simple or complex.

  • Simple: Set the target temperature for each room. Taking into account the heating requirements of each room, determine whether to turn on or off the smart switch (the heat pump).

  • Complex: Set different target temperatures for different days of the week and different times of the day - this is what is called a schedule.

I suggested that the user be able to switch whether they want this thermostat they already have or the advanced.

Yes, we plan to implement the above two heating methods by adding new types of virtual thermostat (without modifying the existing virtual thermostat types and their working mechanisms).

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Thank you very much for your feedback.

Weā€™ll also optimize existing virtual thermostat on NSPanel Pro.

However, the implementation logic of the software is completely different between thermostat plugin on eWeLink App (actually in eWeLink Cloud) and virtual thermostat on NSPanel Pro, so it is not as easy to just be transmitted to the pro panel as it sounds.

73

I agree, the suggestion is good. But if I could, I would definitely keep the thermostat you have. It is suitable for turning on the convector, heating water (for example, aquariums) and opening smart thermostatic heads.

With some central heating systems, it is not necessary to additionally start, for example, a circulation pump. This is especially true for apartment units where heating is provided by a central boiler room.

The second option is universal, where the user can set what else should be turned on when the temperature in the room drops and the thermostatic head opens.

For example, when the temperature in the room drops, the servo valve opens (in the distributor, on the radiator, etc.) and the circulation pump still needs to be turned on to release the heated water to where the room needs to be heated.

This scheme can be applied to heat pumps, condensing boilers, etc., because it is universal.

It is important to remember that when heating is needed, it may be necessary to turn on more devices.

Example: opens the servo valve in the distribution board using Sonoff r2 (this relay must be turned on during heating) and must also turn on the circulation pump.

Sometimes it is done so that one circulation pump serves the ground floor and other pumps for the other floors. This applies to large buildings.

Most often it is done so that there is one circulation pump for the ground floor and the first floor. This applies to small buildings.

In the second case, the logic presented here applies:

If any of the readings from the thermometers is below 20 degree, then TURN ON the heat pump.

Only if all of the readings from the thermometers are above 20 degree, then TURN OFF the heat pump.

I really like your improvement of the thermostat, where it can learn, the scheduler and the classic heating method. It should be left to the user to choose whether he wants the first or the second heating method.

Heating regulation is simple at first glance, but controlling the technology is more complicated. It is not a universal solution, so I suggest that it be possible to choose the first and second heating methods.

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Agree to all mentioned above. Great job!

Regarding schedules, I would like explain my use case. I heat weekend house via water heating (1). I use day schedule and night schedule (2-3 degrees lower temperature than the day).

As it is weekend house, most days I need something like ā€œanti-freeze protectionā€. Make sure temperature in house stays few degrees above freezing level.

This gives 3 schedules, 2 of them time-based (day/night when I am in), third temperature based (antifreeze, I am out of the area).

I like idea of ā€œpreheat in advanceā€ as it is my case. House is cold, but I decide to visit the place. It would be nice to arrive and have comfortable temperature (which may take few hours).

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This should be a great improvement, and the analysis of historical data and user habits would be very useful.

If possible, it would make more sense to me to consider heating demand from temperature sensors (rather than switches or TRVs turning on) to trigger the boiler. This way, systems with only a temperature sensor and a control device (like how the NS Panel thermostat currently works) would also still work, and rooms without switches/TRVs in a more complex system would still be heated.

Ideally, there should be the following relationships:

  • One to one. A single temperature sensor and a single control device (how it currently works).
  • Many to one. Multiple temperature sensors and a single control device (ideal for my setup).
  • Many to many. Multiple temperature sensors and multiple control devices (for systems where the control of additional pumps etc. is required. If the temperature is too low in a ground floor room, turn on the boiler and ground floor pump).
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I wrote the same thing. We need to keep what they already have and what we are proposing. We are all proposing the same heating control system.

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Thank you all for the feedback. Your replies have raised a few more questions for me.

@Jojkoba

Example: opens the servo valve in the distribution board using Sonoff r2 (this relay must be turned on during heating) and must also turn on the circulation pump.

Is circulation pump the same stuff or similar machine as boiler? Or they can be used side by side?

Sometimes it is done so that one circulation pump serves the ground floor and other pumps for the other floors. This applies to large buildings.

Two circulation pumps? They should operate independently of each other, right? I mean, they are controlled by a different set of temperature sensors. For example, temperature sensors in the ground floor control the ON/OFF state of the circulation pump in the ground floor, while temperature sensors in the second floor control the ON/OFF state of the circulation pump in the second floor.

@Stophammer

Many to one. Multiple temperature sensors and a single control device (ideal for my setup).

You mentioned you are using many TRVs, and you have one boiler to heat the whole house, right? From my perspective, this setup is not Many to One in the sense of many sensors to one control device, but many TRVs to one smart switch (boiler).

If the temperature is too low in a ground floor room, turn on the boiler and ground floor pump)

So boiler and circulation pump are two different things and they can work together? Like boiler is the main heat source and circulation pump is the auxiliary (secondary) heat source?

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Thatā€™s right, except I donā€™t have a TRV on every radiator. Iā€™m using just a temperature sensor to control the boiler at the moment, with TRVs on some of the radiators. If itā€™s just TRVs calling for heat from the boiler, the rooms without TRVs may not get sufficiently heated. Thatā€™s why I thought it might be best to use heating demand from temperature sensors (including those in the TRV, or those bound to it) to trigger the smart switch on the boiler, rather than whether a TRV or switch has turned on.

So, if any temperature sensor is too low, turn on the boiler (if any room with a TRV gets too hot, the TRV can turn off the radiator in that room). If no temperature sensor is too low, turn off the boiler.

Ideally, Iā€™d like to set up a traditional thermostat on the NS Panel (a temperature sensor and a smart switch) and link my TRVs to it. If the temperature sensor is too low, or any of the TRVs have switched on, the smart switch activates the boiler. Only when the temperature sensor has reached its target, and all TRVs have switched off, turn off the boiler. This way I could set up a schedule for the thermostat as normal, and set up smart schedules for the TRVs in individual rooms. If thatā€™s not possible, I can always add my TRVs as separate thermostats to my NS Panel (not ideal as it involves setting up a smart schedule and a thermostat schedule for each, but not too much of a problem), but itā€™s no good if one temperature sensor which is too low turns the boiler on, and another which is too high immediately turns the boiler off.

As far as Iā€™m aware, itā€™s best practice not to have TRVs on every radiator, so the boiler will always have at least one uncontrolled radiator to offload its heat to.

I think thatā€™s how some systems work, from what @Jojkoba has explained. Mine is a simple system of a gas boiler with a built-in pump, I only need one smart switch to turn it on, so Iā€™m not sure.

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Iā€™ll draw a picture of where the heat pump and furnace will be connected. And Iā€™ll put a description there so itā€™s clear when to do what. Since you donā€™t do that, it can be confusing.

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Yes, thatā€™s right. Electric boilers and gas boilers have their own circulation pump and you just need to connect two contacts via a smart relay.

In this case i am using Sonoff Zigbee smart minir2.

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Two circulation pumps? They should operate independently of each other, right? I mean, they are controlled by a different set of temperature sensors. For example, temperature sensors in the ground floor control the ON/OFF state of the circulation pump in the ground floor, while temperature sensors in the second floor control the ON/OFF state of the circulation pump in the second floor.

Yes, thatā€™s right, you understand the problem. In addition, he has to turn on the boiler, heat pump, for example.

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Iā€™ll draw a picture of where the heat pump and furnace will be connected. And Iā€™ll put a description there so itā€™s clear when to do what. Since you donā€™t do that, it can be confusing.

Iā€™m waiting for it. Will it be available soon?

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Iā€™ll put it here tonight, he was on vacation.

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These are examples showing the most common wiring methods for multi-zone heating. I will not draw the wiring in detail, but only a block diagram, which is quite sufficient for explanation.

This connection also applies to underfloor heating and controllers.

This image shows how a combination of multiple thermometers, multiple servo valves and central heating, such as a heat pump or electric boiler, should work.

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So, we have 4 rooms in the house. For every room, it applies that it should maintain a temperature of 20 degrees.

Thermometers from each room send the current temperature, but in room number 1 (step 1), the temperature dropped below 20 degrees. Sonoff gateway (iHost, Sonoff Zigbee Bridge Ultra, Sonoff ZigBee Bridge Pro, NSPANEL PRO) detected that in room number 1 the temperature is lower than the tolerance (step 1). Therefore, in (step 2) open the corresponding servo valve for room 1.

Possibilities of servo valves:

  • The Sonoff TRVZB is used on the radiator.
  • For underfloor heating, I use the Sonoff ZBMINI R2 Extreme combined with a servo drive designed for underfloor heating.

And it turns on the heater (step 3) using Sonoff Zigbee MINIR2 Extreme and it will turn on (step 4) heat pump, electric boiler, and circulation pumps on the storage tank and etcā€¦

And let the heated water into the distributor, where through the opened servo valve it will start heating the respective room.

Traps:

  • Temperature tolerance adjustable from at least 0.1 degree. For underfloor heating, a temperature tolerance of half a degree is too much. The floor is cold, it takes a long time to heat up, and the operation is uneconomical.
  • If any thermometer reports a temperature drop below the set temperature.So the Sonoff MINIR2 Extreme, which controls the heating, must not be turned off. Even if the temperature in other rooms has been reached.
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  • The user must be able to add any number of thermometers to the scene and any number of devices that need to be turned on when heating is required.

As can be seen on the display, the heating will not stop until each thermometer reaches the desired temperature. This same procedure applies to every floor. It is universal for most heating systems.